Steve Greenberg loves a challenge.
“When you beat the better team. When they’ve got the better players and they’ve got the better resources, it’s a great thrill when you win.”
He’s talking about his career as a criminal defence lawyer in the US, where his most high-profile client is currently the singer R Kelly.
The star, best known for hits like I Believe I Can Fly and Ignition (Remix) is currently awaiting trial on 10 counts of sexual abuse, all of which he denies.
Mr Greenberg is determined to win.
“Losing every case hurts. No matter what the facts are, no matter who the person is, no matter how guilty they may be,” he tells BBC presenter Ben Zand in The Next Episode podcast.
“I’m happy defending anyone. I have defended serial child rapist killers. I have defended mass murderers. It is not my job to make a value judgment as to whether someone’s conduct is right or wrong morally.”
But when it comes to the singer, Mr Greenberg is sure of his client’s innocence.
“It (Kelly’s upcoming trial) is going to end with a dismissal or a ‘not guilty’ verdict,” he says.
Kelly is accused of sexually abusing four women, three of whom were underage at the times of the alleged crimes.
One of the alleged victims was a teenage fan who tried to get the singer’s autograph during a previous trial in 2008.
Another is said to have met him at her 16th birthday party…